This QB issue has me really nervous..

[slikmojet]

Not sure Clemens will ever be the player Chad. One thing Chad has proven is that he can lead a team to the playoffs. This year's team being the exeption due to the fact that:

1) The defense decided to show up 11 games into the season.

2) The offensive line play and particularly the pass protection has been abysmal all year.

3) Eventhough Coles and Cotch are very nice player we still lack a breakaway threat on this team, none of our skill players can break a game open by themselves, Coles used to be able to, not anymore.

You give Chad some weapons and a good defense to back him up and he's a very competent QB and a proven winner. Not to dump on Kellen because I'm pulling for him, but I just don't think he will amount to much, he looks like a gutsy backup to me with a live arm and good mobility, but the type of player that may not be able to transcend to the elite level despite his tools.

Do I want Chad back? I'm not sure anymore, the fans turned on him and will make his life impossible in NY, the same thing will happen to Kellen, if his struggles continue next year he will booed mercilessly, fans are like the average person jsut too dumb to know any better and 0 patience which is worse.

Chad will go down as one of the all time great jets of all time (not saying much) but no one can take 02,04 and 06 away from him.

[BearJET44]

I respect the hell out of Chad Pennington. The guy's dedication to film study and game preparation is second only to Peyton Manning's. His play just hasn't been the same since he suffered all the injuries, though, and I don't think you can keep starting a QB just because he had one phenomenal season 5 years ago.

Give Clemens time. He's having to learn the ropes in a situation that's far, far from ideal, and I think he's doing as well as can be expected when you take everything into consideration.

[pope]

the Chad of 02' is never coming back, move on for christ sakes, the guy has had 2 shoulder surgeries and is maxed out at AVERAGE at best!!!!!!!!!

[slikmojet]

the Chad of 02' is never coming back, move on for christ sakes, the guy has had 2 shoulder surgeries and is maxed out at AVERAGE at best!!!!!!!!!

Agree, I said I have moved on, read my post. Just think we're in QB purgatory right now.

[ibleedgreen]

Not sure Clemens will ever be the player Chad. One thing Chad has proven is that he can lead a team to the playoffs. This year's team being the exeption due to the fact that:

1) The defense decided to show up 11 games into the season.

2) The offensive line play and particularly the pass protection has been abysmal all year.

3) Eventhough Coles and Cotch are very nice player we still lack a breakaway threat on this team, none of our skill players can break a game open by themselves, Coles used to be able to, not anymore.

You give Chad some weapons and a good defense to back him up and he's a very competent QB and a proven winner. Not to dump on Kellen because I'm pulling for him, but I just don't think he will amount to much, he looks like a gutsy backup to me with a live arm and good mobility, but the type of player that may not be able to transcend to the elite level despite his tools.

Do I want Chad back? I'm not sure anymore, the fans turned on him and will make his life impossible in NY, the same thing will happen to Kellen, if his struggles continue next year he will booed mercilessly, fans are like the average person jsut too dumb to know any better and 0 patience which is worse.

Chad will go down as one of the all time great jets of all time (not saying much) but no one can take 02,04 and 06 away from him.

We really need emoticons for "hedger", "waffler" or "fence rider". :rolleyes: :yawn:

I guess you're the one Peter King was referring to. :rotf: :pound:

[MSGold12]

We really need emoticons for "hedger", "waffler" or "fence rider". :rolleyes: :yawn:

I guess you're the one Peter King was referring to. :rotf: :pound:

Runing a football team is about evaluating talent and taking risks based upon thos eevaluatins.

One thing NONE of us know is what Clemens looked like in practice. All we have seen is his game day expolits whihc even under the best of circumstances were not going to be superlative.

There is othing wrong per se with Chad. He has a provn track record, hes smart, hes a good leader. He has some physical limiations that we have all discussed ad nauseum. But even wiht his resume, there was obviously somehting that mangini sees in Cklemens that makes him believe Clemens can be a solid starter in this league. You simply cannot compare the two.

If the goal is to build a long term winner then chance are Chad is not your guy. Its simlpe fact...he over 30, hes had two major injuires and a history of getting hurt. To that end, mangini may be willing to actually try and build a team and Clem is his guy. if the goal is to see if we can go 7-9 or 8-8 next yeat...go ahead, play Chad. he clearly givres us a beter chance game in and game out to win due to Clems inexperience...but is Chad good enough to take us to that next level. THAT is the $64,000 question and one it seesm Tangini has already answered.

Bits assinine idea that since Clem doesn't curently look like Elway and therefore is not "special" and therefore can't be the guy is just his usual extrmeism. IMO, to accurately judge Clem, he needs a full TC as the starter and a full season behind somehting other then this swiss cheese OL. If he still performs badly after that, by all means toss his to the curb abd find someone else. But to judge his futre after 6 games of alost season? Stupid.

I think based upon Mangini's actions this season, I infer a few things:

1. He sees enough in Clem on days other then Sunday to think he has the goods to be a starter. If he didnt feel this way, he wouldnt have been so anxious to make him the starter (see Balt game, etc.)

2. He is well aware that Chad "gives us a better chance to win" in 07. But hwo gives a sh*t? We were 1-9 WITH Chad...finishing 6-10 wiht him is some kind of postive accomplishemnt? Anyone who thinks that is somehow better then giving the potential QB of the future game action is sadly short sighted.

3. He likes Chad, he respects Chad, he knows Chad is acompetent NFL QB...and I dont thin he thinks Chad can take the team to the next level. i dont think he is sure if Clem can eihter but if given the choice between the two miving forward, he seems to want to take the risk and see if Clem has the better upside.

But this idea that Clem is supopssed to be whipping TDs all over the field in hs first 6 starts wiht a 1-9 team who has a crappy OL is ajoke. QBs can take years to develop. For every Marino and Manning there is a Bradshaw or an Aikamn.

Whether you like Chad or not is immaterial. To fuly judge Clem, you canto base it on 6 starts in a lost season...not the media, not Bit, not Dana Leberfeld.

[bitonti]

Bits assinine idea that since Clem doesn't curently look like Elway and therefore is not "special" and therefore can't be the guy is just his usual extrmeism. IMO, to accurately judge Clem, he needs a full TC as the starter and a full season behind somehting other then this swiss cheese OL. If he still performs badly after that, by all means toss his to the curb abd find someone else. But to judge his futre after 6 games of alost season? Stupid.


MSG what if, as you say, the Jets do the 'full season' behind a 'real OL' and Clemens still sucks, does that make my 'asinine statement' right? or is it always wrong to speculate until all the facts are in, no matter if the outcome matches the 'extreme' prediction?


It seems to me that if anyone makes a prediction you don't agree with they are called extreme. I call it ballsy. but whatever.

YOu have a problem with my extremism and that's fine but I stand by my accuracy. If Clemens needs a real OL and real weapons then he's not the type of tom brady special QB who will make the crappy players around him better, that's my point, not that Clemens is worthless and they should cut him now. Im saying early returns should ratchet down the expectations that Clemens will be great. His game has some pretty big holes that might never get filled in, 6 games may not have told us everything but it has told us that much. Pocket prescence, seeing the field, feeling the pressure, accuracy, these are not Clemens' strong suits. Will they be in the future? yeah anything's possible, but chances are if it walks like a duck it's a duck.

[MSGold12]

MSG what if, as you say, the Jets do the 'full season' behind a 'real OL' and Clemens still sucks, does that make my 'asinine statement' right? or is it always wrong to speculate until all the facts are in, no matter if the outcome matches the 'extreme' prediction?


It seems to me that if anyone makes a prediction you don't agree with they are called extreme. I call it ballsy. but whatever.

YOu have a problem with my extremism and that's fine but I stand by my accuracy. If Clemens needs a real OL and real weapons then he's not the type of tom brady special QB who will make the crappy players around him better, that's my point, not that Clemens is worthless and they should cut him now. Im saying early returns should ratchet down the expectations that Clemens will be great. His game has some pretty big holes that might never get filled in, 6 games may not have told us everything but it has told us that much. Pocket prescence, seeing the field, feeling the pressure, accuracy, these are not Clemens' strong suits. Will they be in the future? yeah anything's possible, but chances are if it walks like a duck it's a duck.

So let me understand what you are asking me here. You are saying that if we actually alow Clem to give us a body of work to judge by and he still fails, AT THAT POINT will I agree that hes not our guy??? is that what you are syaing Bit? Because if it is, then it frightens me to think that you can be this utterly clueless. You think about your statement a little and get back to me as to why what younwrote in that paragraph is so uterly riduclous.

Predictions are one thing...knee jerk snap decisions that are then put out as fact rather then opinion are somehitng else...and that is EXACTLY what you do all the time. You amde the bed Bit...you have to lie in it.

And I'll say it again...based upon your way of analyzing, you'd have wrotten off several all time great QBs because they didnt look "special" right off the bat. NO QB...no matter HOW good, can "make crappy players arounf him better"...not in this sport. Go ask Archie Manning. You think that a 6 game audition in alost season is enough to make a final judgement on a guy. THAT is why oyu are an extrmeeist...not because you have a differing opinion. And for the 1,000,000th time...its sad you cant see that.

As to "standing by your accuracy"...give me a break, you have been wrong VERY often.

[ret2ski]

I hear ya' Slik. Right now I just don't know.

Do we have 2 starting calibre QB's, one, or do we have none?

If we had a good O line & less predictable play calling are we going to the playoffs with either guy at the helm?

How much of the predictable play calling is because we don't have an O line?

If we were to have a better team around either guy could he take us to the dance?

Compounding the issue is that I don't see any of the guys in the draft as a slam dunk.

It will be a most interesting & difficult off season for Tangini. They blew it with the O line last off season, they have to get this one right or we're in for a couple more frustrating years.

[bitonti]

alost season is enough to make a final judgement on a guy. THAT is why oyu are an extrmeeist...not because you have a differing opinion. And for the 1,000,000th time...its sad you cant see that.


the only thing extreme is your slanting of my statements. Again i never said anything about final judgment.

MSG you might need an enemy in this life, but trust me I am not that man. I am just a Jets fan like you who wants to win. You might want to slam me for whatever reason but i call em like i see em.

And if Clemens does in fact suck over time you should apologize for blowing another gasket for no reason... by the way you never acknoledge the things I say that are right, and that's not fair. My Jets short list for 2006 was Brick, Cutler and Ngata, all those players panned out. Did you ever log on to say hey bitonti nice call on Ngata? no you just log on to bash.

[MSGold12]

the only thing extreme is your slanting of my statements. Again i never said anything about final judgment.

MSG you might need an enemy in this life, but trust me I am not that man. I am just a Jets fan like you who wants to win. You might want to slam me for whatever reason but i call em like i see em.

And if Clemens does in fact suck over time you should apologize for blowing another gasket for no reason... by the way you never acknoledge the things I say that are right, and that's not fair. My Jets short list for 2006 was Brick, Cutler and Ngata, all those players panned out. Did you ever log on to say hey bitonti nice call on Ngata? no you just log on to bash.

Nice call on Ngata...:peace:

[MSGold12]

the only thing extreme is your slanting of my statements. Again i never said anything about final judgment.

MSG you might need an enemy in this life, but trust me I am not that man. I am just a Jets fan like you who wants to win. You might want to slam me for whatever reason but i call em like i see em.

And if Clemens does in fact suck over time you should apologize for blowing another gasket for no reason... by the way you never acknoledge the things I say that are right, and that's not fair. My Jets short list for 2006 was Brick, Cutler and Ngata, all those players panned out. Did you ever log on to say hey bitonti nice call on Ngata? no you just log on to bash.

And btw...you predicted GREATNESS for Cutler...and he is currently QBing the first Denver team to finish this far out of the playoff hunt in a decade. So, is it fair for me to say Cutler isn;t special either as YOU said he was????

[bitonti]

And btw...you predicted GREATNESS for Cutler...and he is currently QBing the first Denver team to finish this far out of the playoff hunt in a decade. So, is it fair for me to say Cutler isn;t special either as YOU said he was????

I said he was capable of it and for a while this year they were doing that... I think there was some confusion there, I said he could be an instant impact guy like Marino, somehow that became I think Jay Cutler will be as good as Dan Marino. If that's the statement then yes it's fair to say Cutler isn't that special.

side Note: Denver is tanking the season for draft positioning by playing scrubs instead of starters. I am taking the points and betting against Denver for the rest of the year.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/20/krieger-losing-out-will-help-broncos-point/

he's still playing the best QB of those 3, and 4 including Clemens.

thanks for the NGata compliment i needed that :mob:

[Wolfe Jet]

I think in looking at Chad v. Kellen, look at the things that can be taught vs. the ones that cannot. I think the holes in Kellen's game can be taught, if he dedicates himself to study the way Chad does - in that regard I hope Chad stays in '08, to help Kellen develop those kind of habits...

[pope]

the only thing extreme is your slanting of my statements. Again i never said anything about final judgment.

MSG you might need an enemy in this life, but trust me I am not that man. I am just a Jets fan like you who wants to win. You might want to slam me for whatever reason but i call em like i see em.

And if Clemens does in fact suck over time you should apologize for blowing another gasket for no reason... by the way you never acknoledge the things I say that are right, and that's not fair. My Jets short list for 2006 was Brick, Cutler and Ngata, all those players panned out. Did you ever log on to say hey bitonti nice call on Ngata? no you just log on to bash.


Cutler has been average at best.

Brick is another average at best player. I wonder why after just 6 games you didn't consider him a bust, I don't see any "Orlando Pace" insta-greatness from him yet you constantly back this turd.

1 out of 3 isn't bad. Even us who don't go to senior bowls, combines or delve through hours of tape
can hit on that weak %.

[bitonti]

Cutler has been average at best.

Brick is another average at best player. I wonder why after just 6 games you didn't consider him a bust, I don't see any "Orlando Pace" insta-greatness from him yet you constantly back this turd.

1 out of 3 isn't bad. Even us who don't go to senior bowls, combines or delve through hours of tape
can hit on that weak %.

I have to ask, do you think has Clemens been "average at best?" or below average?

Ill take average from a 2nd year player, gladly. Below average troubles me.

If the standards we are using is that Jay Cutler has been average, then Clemens is downright terrible

(note the beginning of that statement... i am not saying Clemens is terrible... i am trying to figureout pope's scale)

[AFL12]

Last years playoff appearance was useless, we got smoked in the second half by the pats. It's was just what we've been with Chad, "just good enough to get us in".
THIS year WAS Chad’s year, not KC’s, but do to circumstance beyond his control AND in his control it just didn't work out for Chad.
And lets remember, this offense we’re running was built around Chad’s play and our (his) deficiencies. It was developed over the last two years, and Clemens was brought in the middle of this year. Let’s see what a full camp and a different approach brings with KC next year. If he cr@ps the bed, So what? What have we really lost? Really, Just one year invested, and in a time where the cheaters are ruling the league anyway.

btw, What I'm NOT worried about is mangini! these last few games has somewhat relieved my concerns about him being a one trick pony.

[pope]

I have to ask, do you think has Clemens been "average at best?" or below average?

Ill take average from a 2nd year player, gladly. Below average troubles me.

Well then Brick should have troubled you greatly, DRob another one of your favorites should have troubled you greatly if that's your bell curve because after the first 6 games of their careers both were FAR below average yet to this day you back DRob and Brick (Both who by the way are not second round picks like Clemens but #4 overall picks in the entire draft.)

You make zero sense.

[MSGold12]

I said he was capable of it and for a while this year they were doing that... I think there was some confusion there, I said he could be an instant impact guy like Marino, somehow that became I think Jay Cutler will be as good as Dan Marino. If that's the statement then yes it's fair to say Cutler isn't that special.

side Note: Denver is tanking the season for draft positioning by playing scrubs instead of starters. I am taking the points and betting against Denver for the rest of the year.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/20/krieger-losing-out-will-help-broncos-point/

he's still playing the best QB of those 3, and 4 including Clemens.

thanks for the NGata compliment i needed that :mob:

You are NOT my enemy...juts a guy I like argueing with. Stop taking it personally!!!!!

[MSGold12]

I think in looking at Chad v. Kellen, look at the things that can be taught vs. the ones that cannot. I think the holes in Kellen's game can be taught, if he dedicates himself to study the way Chad does - in that regard I hope Chad stays in '08, to help Kellen develop those kind of habits...

I think that is an excellent assessment of the current situation...but I see no way they keep Chad.

[pope]

I have to ask, do you think has Clemens been "average at best?" or below average?

Ill take average from a 2nd year player, gladly. Below average troubles me.

If the standards we are using is that Jay Cutler has been average, then Clemens is downright terrible

(note the beginning of that statement... i am not saying Clemens is terrible... i am trying to figureout pope's scale)

He's struggled, no doubt but that's expected of a kid in his first handful of games. He should have beaten Baltimore and he beat Pittsburgh, sorry, but he can't be that bad.

Cutler is in his second year with a better team, how can you possibly grade the 2 evenly? Cutler in his second year has been AVERAGE at best, I'll judge Clemens next year and let you know, mmmmkay?

[bitonti]

He's struggled, no doubt but that's expected of a kid in his first handful of games. He should have beaten Baltimore and he beat Pittsburgh, sorry, but he can't be that bad.

Cutler is in his second year with a better team, how can you possibly grade the 2 evenly? Cutler in his second year has been AVERAGE at best, I'll judge Clemens next year and let you know, mmmmkay?

by the way "average at best" jay cutler has a QB rating over 90 and has thrown for 18 TD this year.

[NFLs StepChild]

:millen: Stop gloating. You are still a tool.

[pope]

by the way "average at best" jay cutler has a QB rating over 90 and has thrown for 18 TD this year.

And the Broncos are worse than they have been in years.

Does your "qb's" should make everyone around them better not apply to Cutler? Only to Clemens and other qb's you dislike?

[JetsMan57]

MSG what if, as you say, the Jets do the 'full season' behind a 'real OL' and Clemens still sucks, does that make my 'asinine statement' right? or is it always wrong to speculate until all the facts are in, no matter if the outcome matches the 'extreme' prediction?


It seems to me that if anyone makes a prediction you don't agree with they are called extreme. I call it ballsy. but whatever.

YOu have a problem with my extremism and that's fine but I stand by my accuracy. If Clemens needs a real OL and real weapons then he's not the type of tom brady special QB who will make the crappy players around him better, that's my point, not that Clemens is worthless and they should cut him now. Im saying early returns should ratchet down the expectations that Clemens will be great. His game has some pretty big holes that might never get filled in, 6 games may not have told us everything but it has told us that much. Pocket prescence, seeing the field, feeling the pressure, accuracy, these are not Clemens' strong suits. Will they be in the future? yeah anything's possible, but chances are if it walks like a duck it's a duck.

Tom Brady never played behind a bad offensive line.

[bitonti]

And the Broncos are worse than they have been in years.

Does your "qb's" should make everyone around them better not apply to Cutler? Only to Clemens and other qb's you dislike?

if you want to call it a double standard so be it but Cutler never looked as bad as Clemens. even in his rookie year his QB rating was above 85. Clemens struggled as expected but still not good news.

pope remember former Jets OG Issac Snell? he is getting snaps for Broncos. that team is tanking as are several other teams. STL punting for no reason last night, KC Chiefs also are in the tank big time.

[pope]

if you want to call it a double standard so be it but Cutler never looked as bad as Clemens. even in his rookie year his QB rating was above 85. Clemens struggled as expected but still not good news.

pope remember former Jets OG Issac Snell? he is getting snaps for Broncos. that team is tanking as are several other teams. STL punting for no reason last night, KC Chiefs also are in the tank big time.

You are chock full of double standards, I won't re-hash this thread but you don't apply the same standards to your favorites like Brick. Thus you look foolish.

Broncos have sucked all season, listen I like Cutler, I'm just pointing out how silly your reaction to Clemens is.

[slikmojet]

I hear ya' Slik. Right now I just don't know.

Do we have 2 starting calibre QB's, one, or do we have none?

If we had a good O line & less predictable play calling are we going to the playoffs with either guy at the helm?

How much of the predictable play calling is because we don't have an O line?

If we were to have a better team around either guy could he take us to the dance?

Compounding the issue is that I don't see any of the guys in the draft as a slam dunk.

It will be a most interesting & difficult off season for Tangini. They blew it with the O line last off season, they have to get this one right or we're in for a couple more frustrating years.







That's my point, Qb is all of a sudden a big question mark on this team. If they trade Pennington make that a double question mark. This team has so many holes right now, that you plug one and another one opens.

[AFL12]

The Chad baton is being passed and we are in the same boat as many, many teams; looking for that next great QB. If it's not KC then it will be someone else. we really don't have that much invested in KC. and dispite what LL says, he was as cheap as a potential starter can get! he really didn't even cost us a draft pick, just a move down in the second round.