another move we should have made...

[massiveblack]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21326694/

Chambers to San Diego for a 2nd round pick. Seems like he would have been a big help up here.

also saw that bennett went to TB for picks...so much for the memo trade.


mb

[NinersLacking]

Chambers probably would have helped the Vikings, but the two situations are very different and I can understand why Minnesota didn't trade for him.

In San Diego Chambers won't be expected to be the go-to guy--a role that didn't work out especially well for him in Miami. He will have Antonio Gates and LaDainian Tomlinson opening things up for him. Gates is the established #1 receiver for the Chargers (54 targets to date). Tomlinson is also a secondary option as a receiver (38 targets).

To this point the WRs have been focal point of the San Diego offense (66 targets as a group). Vincent Jackson may turn out to be a decent possession WR. Craig Davis will probably only have a marginal impact as a rookie (which is to be expected). Chambers can come in and be the team's best WR, but at the same time not have the pressure to produce a lot on his own. As mentioned he may also benefit from having Tomlinson / Gates take away safeties on some plays.

[drunknmunky127]

Chambers probably would have helped the Vikings, but the two situations are very different and I can understand why Minnesota didn't trade for him.

In San Diego Chambers won't be expected to be the go-to guy--a role that didn't work out especially well for him in Miami. He will have Antonio Gates and LaDainian Tomlinson opening things up for him. Gates is the established #1 receiver for the Chargers (54 targets to date). Tomlinson is also a secondary option as a receiver (38 targets).

To this point the WRs have been focal point of the San Diego offense (66 targets as a group). Vincent Jackson may turn out to be a decent possession WR. Craig Davis will probably only have a marginal impact as a rookie (which is to be expected). Chambers can come in and be the team's best WR, but at the same time not have the pressure to produce a lot on his own. As mentioned he may also benefit from having Tomlinson / Gates take away safeties on some plays.
indeed. good post, good points.




as for why Minnesota didn't go for him, my guess would be that he didn't fit the plan of sorts. wilf says the team is on a 2-3 year track, which, if he actually means, kinda points to chambers not being much help in. he would still be around at the end of the that period, but not for long. i figure childress and wilf probably wanted the 2nd round pick more. not saying that it is the choice i would have made ( i would have thought long and hard about it. for a 3rd i wouldn't have had to even think), but i do understand the reasoning they might have had.

[Vike brother]

i wouldnt have given up a 2nd round pick for him. we are not as close as the chargers are to a serious playoff push. use the second round pick to address the OL, FS, or another young WR.

[GMoney]

We have an extra 4th.

SD 2nd is about the value of our 3rd and 4th.

We got Bobby Wade, why make a move for a top notch WR.

[Vike brother]

the way i see it, we are not going to be passing too often this season. so why spend a second round pick on a guy who wont get the ball real often and slow the progression of rice, allison, and williamson? simple economics shows us that we wont be getting an equal or greater value by trading our second round pick for him.

[massiveblack]

unless of course we blow the second round pick...which is possible to say the least.

[drunknmunky127]

unless of course we blow the second round pick...which is possible to say the least.

true its possible, but ive grown to trust the draft with us now a bit more. we've gotten some good value the past couple of years, especially this years.

im gonna have to start my scouting soon, see whos performing. i think this year might be a bad year for receivers though. it seemed alot went out early last year. then again, i havn't checked much this year.

[twelveletter]

It doesn't sound like the fish fans are very distraught about the move. This link is from pre- season. http://www.nflfans.com/x/showthread.php?t=27594

[GMoney]

Slow Troy's development? How much slower can it get.

How about those Scarlet Knights of Rutgers!

[Vike brother]

Slow Troy's development? How much slower can it get.

Typically the rule is it takes WRs three years to prove themselves. This is Troy's third. Unfortunatly we havent had much success throwing the ball yet, so we really dont know how much he progressed this offseason. Seeing that 60 yard TD reception looked promising. Maybe he has improved into a legit #2, but his production has been hindered on conservative play calling and inconsistant QB play.

Just food for thought.

[drunknmunky127]

Typically the rule is it takes WRs three years to prove themselves. This is Troy's third. Unfortunatly we havent had much success throwing the ball yet, so we really dont know how much he progressed this offseason. Seeing that 60 yard TD reception looked promising. Maybe he has improved into a legit #2, but his production has been hindered on conservative play calling and inconsistant QB play.

Just food for thought.

indeed. the 3 year rule is good to keep in mind. aside from that its good to remember that he was drafted under the knowledge that he was a raw receiver. if he doesn't show any improvement after this season, i could agree that he is a lost cause, but i figure wait it out, see if he can produce like those first couple of games last year, and then make the call.

[Hyperborean]

Man, I don't see how you guys do it. How anyone can have any hope left for Troy Williamson is beyond my comprehension. And if he still is developing, how helpful is a QB who rarely puts it in the right spot?

Jackson exhibits Grossman-like accuracy most of the time. Look at his completion percentage this year (49%) and consider how infrequently he attempts downfield passes. Sure he connected with Williamson once for a long TD, but even a blind squirrel gets a nut every once in a while. In my book, it's simple math: inaccurate QB + WR who drops most of his chances=anemic passing game.

Williamson is averaging 2 catches for 33 yds per game this year. In 2006 he averaged 2.3 catches for 28 yds and never scored a TD. In 2005 it was 1.5 catches for 23 yds per game with 2 TDs all year. Jemaine Wiggins blew those stats out of the water and we showed him the door, so what's Williamson got?

I'll believe he can play when I see it. Hopefully, the Vikings will cut ties with this bust and give him a chance to shine (yeah right) on some other team next year. We need to move on and get some football players rather than track stars that we hope can one day learn to be a receiver.

We should have drafted Erasmus at #7 and Mark Clayton at #18. Look at the guys who were drafted after Mr. Nohands:
Antrel Rolle, Carlos Rogers, Demarcus Ware, Shawne (roids) Merriman, Jammal Brown, Thomas Davis, Derrick O. Johnson, Travis Johnson, Alex Barron, Fabian Washington, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, Marlin Jackson, Heath Miller, Logan Mankins. And that was just the first round.

[drunknmunky127]

Man, I don't see how you guys do it. How anyone can have any hope left for Troy Williamson is beyond my comprehension. And if he still is developing, how helpful is a QB who rarely puts it in the right spot?

Jackson exhibits Grossman-like accuracy most of the time. Look at his completion percentage this year (49%) and consider how infrequently he attempts downfield passes. Sure he connected with Williamson once for a long TD, but even a blind squirrel gets a nut every once in a while. In my book, it's simple math: inaccurate QB + WR who drops most of his chances=anemic passing game.

Williamson is averaging 2 catches for 33 yds per game this year. In 2006 he averaged 2.3 catches for 28 yds and never scored a TD. In 2005 it was 1.5 catches for 23 yds per game with 2 TDs all year. Jemaine Wiggins blew those stats out of the water and we showed him the door, so what's Williamson got?

I'll believe he can play when I see it. Hopefully, the Vikings will cut ties with this bust and give him a chance to shine (yeah right) on some other team next year. We need to move on and get some football players rather than track stars that we hope can one day learn to be a receiver.

We should have drafted Erasmus at #7 and Mark Clayton at #18. Look at the guys who were drafted after Mr. Nohands:
Antrel Rolle, Carlos Rogers, Demarcus Ware, Shawne (roids) Merriman, Jammal Brown, Thomas Davis, Derrick O. Johnson, Travis Johnson, Alex Barron, Fabian Washington, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, Marlin Jackson, Heath Miller, Logan Mankins. And that was just the first round.

i can agree that he wasn't the best pick at the time, im just saying that he's shown flashes, and he might pick it up

[Vike brother]

We should have drafted Erasmus at #7 and Mark Clayton at #18. Look at the guys who were drafted after Mr. Nohands:
Antrel Rolle, Carlos Rogers, Demarcus Ware, Shawne (roids) Merriman, Jammal Brown, Thomas Davis, Derrick O. Johnson, Travis Johnson, Alex Barron, Fabian Washington, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, Marlin Jackson, Heath Miller, Logan Mankins. And that was just the first round.

Ware and Merriman were undersized for DEs at the time and wouldnt have fit at LB real well in a 4-3. their success in the league has been because of the 3-4 and being able to blitz off the corner with little resistance. Davis was a SS/LB tweener, and most teams are not fond of taking tweeners early in the draft (an example would be bryan robinson this year). Johnson is on the verge of being called a bust, and at the time we had both Williams, so wouldnt have made much sense. Rodgers cant be real impressive since there have been reports the past two seasons of the Packers trying to deal him away. Mankins wouldnt make much sense either since we already had Birk.

[GMoney]

You guys use this "3 year" rule as a out for a WR.

Troy in 2 1/2 years has 69 catches for 961 yards and 3 TDs
2005 24-372-2 in 14 games
2006 37-455-0 in 14 games played, was a healthy scratch or 2.
2007 8-134-1

He was the #7 pick in 2005

How about the #7 pick in the 2004 draft..Roy Williams
2004 54-817-8 in 14 games
2005 45-687-8 in 13 games
2006 82-1310-7
2007 29-424-3

How about the #3 pick in 2005...Braylon Edwards
2005 32-512-3 in 10 games
2006 61-884-6
2007 29-552-7

How about the #3 pick in 2004 draft...Larry Fitzgerald
2004 58-780-8
2005 103-1409-10
2006 69-946-6 in 13 games
2007 40-545-1


Troy has played 4 games and has 8-134-1

Braylon had 8-146-1 in WEEK #2 and 5-67-3 in WEEK #6
Larry had 10-120 in WEEK #4 and 9-136-1 in WEEK #5
Roy has 7-111-1 in WEEK #2 and 9-204-1 in WEEK #3

Either you guys are too young or naive but look at the numbers of players drafted in their slots and draft classes.

[NinersLacking]

The third-year WR concept is more about "breaking out" than "developing" ... and typically is used in the context of fantasy football (i.e. ~1,000 yards and 6-10 TDs). Obviously, in any sample of players you have, there are going to be guys that produce early and guys that "develop" or produce later. Specifically pointing to Fitzgerald, Williams, and Edwards doesn't invalidate the idea any more than pointing to a handful of guys (like Williamson) validates it. In either case, though, it misses out on what is actually important. There are far too many factors (system, injuries, "polish" out of college, etc.) that go into how much time a young WR sees and how much of an impact he realistically can make. The following charts illustrate that breakout years are spread out quite a bit...and that 2001-2003 is probably why you hear so much about the third-year WRs poised for breakout seasons these days. Again, depending on how far back you want to go the data may or may not mean anything at all. However, it is pretty well established that young wideouts usually don't have the impact that fans want them to (50+ catches, ~1,000 yards, 6+ TDs) until at least their second year and in some cases a few seasons later.

Source: http://www.footballdocs.com/WR_3_year_rule.html

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8408/29198474qr8.png (http://imageshack.us)

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/434/75827076vv8.png (http://imageshack.us)

[Vike brother]

Braylon had 8-146-1 in WEEK #2 and 5-67-3 in WEEK #6
Larry had 10-120 in WEEK #4 and 9-136-1 in WEEK #5
Roy has 7-111-1 in WEEK #2 and 9-204-1 in WEEK #3

Either you guys are too young or naive but look at the numbers of players drafted in their slots and draft classes.

there is a huge difference between those three and troy. they have an experienced QB throwing the ball. Braylon has had Frye and Anderson. Larry has had former MVP Warner and Leinart. Roy has Kitna. We have not had an experienced QB throwing to Troy for the exception of Johnson. But Troy was a #3 for the majority of the time when Johnson was here. Also, the play calling has been very conservative overall the past couple of seasons.

[Hyperborean]

Ware and Merriman were undersized for DEs at the time and wouldnt have fit at LB real well in a 4-3. their success in the league has been because of the 3-4 and being able to blitz off the corner with little resistance. Davis was a SS/LB tweener, and most teams are not fond of taking tweeners early in the draft (an example would be bryan robinson this year). Johnson is on the verge of being called a bust, and at the time we had both Williams, so wouldnt have made much sense. Rodgers cant be real impressive since there have been reports the past two seasons of the Packers trying to deal him away. Mankins wouldnt make much sense either since we already had Birk.

Not quite sure what the point of this post is, other than to illustrate faults of the players drafted after Williamson or how they wouldn't have fit into our system. Needless to say, it's all hypothetical and who knows if any of those guys would have been anything special on the Vikings. But we KNOW Williamson is nothing special because we've had first hand experience with him. Everyone has faults, but that list is full of football players. Who would you NOT trade Williamson for at this very moment? Be honest. Not just out of those players, I mean ANY player. Even other bum WRs would be a good trade because there is the chance that a change of scenery will do them good.

You wouldn't rather have Aaron Rodgers starting than Jackson? You wouldn't rather have Shawne Merriman rushing the QB rather than Troy Williamson dropping passes? (By the way, Merriman is 270lbs, James is 266 so the size is a non-factor.). You woudn't rather have Logan Mankins holding down the right guard or tackle spot instead of the rotation of bozos we have now?

Anyone else feel the same?

And how do you get that these guys (Merriman and Ware) are blitzing off the corner with little resistance? Nobody blocks outside LBs in the 3-4? I didn't know that. Maybe we should convert to a 3-4 defense then, because we sure could use the pressure on the opposing QB to help our last ranked pass-D.

[Hyperborean]

We seem to have a chicken and egg thing going on here. So let's get this straight: does Tarvaris Jackson stink because his receivers are no good, or are the receivers no good because they don't have a good QB throwing them the ball? Sounds like there's always an excuse other than our players aren't good enough to perform.

I know, Childress calls a poor game, but damn, Jackson was off target on a lot of throws that NFL QBs ought to be making too. It's hard to expand the role of your QB when he can't even perform with the training wheels on.

Good football players show themselves in spite of their teammates. Who were Tom Brady's WRs before this season? Troy Brown and Deion Branch, among other no-names. McNabb certainly made pro bowls with very little help from WRs.

Why do Kurt Warner and Jeff Garcia continue to show up as starting QBs in the league? Why do guys like Wayne Chrbet and Bobby Engram enjoy long careers while hotshot young athletes come and go at their positions? Answer: they're football players.

Jackson and Williamson are on the team because they were athletes with "potential". If our last draft is any indication, I think the Vikings have changed their philosophy on drafting athletes rather than football players. It's how championships are built.

[GMoney]

there is a huge difference between those three and troy. they have an experienced QB throwing the ball. Braylon has had Frye and Anderson. Larry has had former MVP Warner and Leinart. Roy has Kitna. We have not had an experienced QB throwing to Troy for the exception of Johnson. But Troy was a #3 for the majority of the time when Johnson was here. Also, the play calling has been very conservative overall the past couple of seasons.

VB,

Sorry, what planet are you on???????????????

2004 Arizona QB was Josph McCown lots of experience
2005 Arizona was split 50/50 between McKown and Warner
2006/2007 Arizona was Warner and Leinart

2004 Detroit Lions was Joey Harrington and his wealth of experience
2005 Detroit was 2/3 Harington and 1/3 Garcia
2006/2007 Detroit was Kitna

2005 Cleveland Browns was 2/3 Trent Difler and 1/3 the experience Frye
2006 Cleveland was Frye
2007 Cleveland was Derek Anderson

Were is the wealth of experience?

[Vike brother]

VB,

Sorry, what planet are you on???????????????

2004 Arizona QB was Josph McCown lots of experience
2005 Arizona was split 50/50 between McKown and Warner
2006/2007 Arizona was Warner and Leinart

2004 Detroit Lions was Joey Harrington and his wealth of experience
2005 Detroit was 2/3 Harington and 1/3 Garcia
2006/2007 Detroit was Kitna

2005 Cleveland Browns was 2/3 Trent Difler and 1/3 the experience Frye
2006 Cleveland was Frye
2007 Cleveland was Derek Anderson

Were is the wealth of experience?

You dont think Kitna, Warner, Leinart, Garcia, Frye, or Anderson are better QBs than Jackson right now or even Johnson last year? Also, when williamson first came into the league, he was buried behind Koren Robinson, Taylor, and Marcus. He didnt see the imeadiate PT that the WRs previously mentioned got. Factor in a near bottom passing offense, doesnt spell success for Troy. Name the last solid WR we have had. You have to go back to the Tice era dont you. Doesnt that say something about our QBs and coaching?